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A Complete Groove-production Laboratory Native Instruments' retooled Maschine MK3 offers powerful new features, such as a built-in 24-bit/96kHz audio interface, high-resolution full-color displays, larger pads, touch-sensitive knobs, and more. As a software instrument and hardware controller in one, Maschine gives you the ability to make beats, tweak sounds, create patterns, and more — you can even sequence entire songs! More than 8GB of sample content, along with an included upgrade to Komplete 11 Ultimate, adds a complete array of production-ready sounds to your sonic toolbox. Add to that an intuitive layout and seamless DAW integration, and you've got a complete groove-production laboratory at your fingertips. Maschine MK3 lets you create, mix, and perform like never before! A host of powerful MK3 features With Maschine MK3 comes an array of powerful features.
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DIY 12' Tannoy Horn Space, the instruments and the music DIY design: horn loudspeaker for 12' Tannoy Dual Concentric drivers Author: - TNT-Audio South Africa Published: July, 2015 Introduction Once you leave the anemic dynamics of all monkey coffins you are taking on a brave new challenge that few Americans are able to confront.the challenge of authentic music dynamics that only horns can produce at low distortion.and remember there is a great deal of difference between playing loud and dynamic range. For example.if you use a midrange and tweeter horn and do not use a comparable woofer horn then you will have dynamic discontinuity.but if you use a woofer horn of any significance you will have problems in a normal room (terrible sound) because the room can't absorb the energy. Of course, if you want to use a horn of reasonable length you must fold it and that means a very expensive, heavy and large box.like the Tannoy Westminster's.
Because of the dynamic/low distortion nature of horns every problem in your audio system is exaggerated because it is so obvious.and on the other hand it is a very device for experiencing the gross and subtle differences in components and gear” Dr Harvey “Gizmo” Rosenberg “.Once horn speakers get in your blood nothing else will do. They put you IN the music in a way other types of speakers rarely do.” Paul Eizik, letter to “Readers' Forum”, Sound Practices Vol.2, #1 “Although full-range horn systems are used today only by a small number of enthusiasts, most experts are unanimous in acclaiming their virtues as loudspeaker enclosures, especially their high degree of realism and “presence”. Jack Dinsdale, 'Horn Loudspeaker Design”, Part I, Wireless World, March 1974 The writings of audio luminaries such as Jack Dinsdale, John Crabbe, Paul Klipsch and many others drew me to Horn Speakers and from the first I was hooked. I admit to certain foibles audio wise, love of horns is one, a dislike for small drivers is another and a preference for dynamics and timbre that approaches real live music another. This rather inevitably leads to the need for very efficient speakers and horns are a way to further this.
Unless one is prepared and is solvent enough to spend huge gobs of cash on for example a pair of Tannoy Westminster Royals then DIY with second hand drivers is the only recourse. Design & driver The build described here is for my analogue system using either SE 300B (two in parallel) Triode amp or Leak Point One Stereo with an output of 8 to 10 Watts and needing to play back everything from brass band to organ and orchestra in a room of 64 sq M. First off was to source drivers. I have a preference for Tannoy Dual Concentric drivers and found a pair of 12' Monitor Gold's in rather horrible Lancaster boxes second hand. Of 70's vintage they have the AlNiCo magnets and cloth surrounds and not the degradable Tannoyplast foam. The Tannoy Monitor Gold is 12' with 93/95 dB free standing sensitivity so a back loaded horn was needed to lift that to closer to 100 dB. The Dual Concentric Tannoys have two magnets systems (or motors), one for the main paper cone and the other for a HF horn integrated through the pole piece.
The associated original crossover and controls for HF gain and roll off are also used. The design of horn loaded cabinets is not something to undertake lightly so the easiest approach is to find a suitable plan on the internet and 'tweak' it to suit which is what I did. Usually a horn loaded cabinet is difficult to build and one look at my big Tannoy Double Autograph drawings, with 65 panels per cabinet decided me against something quite as extreme. I have in the past built the Rectangular GRF cabinets but as they did not perform well I looked further and come up with a cabinet designed by Coral in Japan.
In addition all outer panels are 32 mm thick Supawood (dense MDF) and finish is piano black. The crossovers are mounted out of sight inside the back horn mouth and the Controls above them through the wall. As per the above “right” holes have to be made to suit the magnet structure. This is the most difficult part of what is a quite easy build. The speaker driver mounts from the outside. No provision was made for speaker grills and the finish is as per the pictures following. The cabinets are mounted on casters but spikes or small feet could be substituted.
They are needed if the angled panel is extended out as I did. The panels behind the driver have a 12mm layer of felt to stop back reflection through the cone. No other damping is needed! Above, cabinets upside down without backs, middle showing the hole for the gain and roll off controls (note the wood thickness) and left polishing in progress.
In their final form and including the caster hight they measure: 1.140 High X 0.470 Wide x 0.450 Front to Back, that measurement does not take into account the lip sticking out at the bottom. The idea of the lip was cribbed from the Living Voice Air Partner which is most probably one of the nicest speakers available.
There are ring covers for the driver mounts the screws of which still need to be blackened and the light colour wooden cabinet surround is of Jacaranda wood. In the background is one of a pair of NOS Goodmans Axiom 201 in a Reflex cabinet which will soon be housed in another set of these horns. Listening impressions The equipment used is as follows. Shure V15 V with Gyger stylus, EMT 948 turntable with EMT 929 Tone Arm, Jolida Phono Stage, Valve pre-amp and Parallel 300B SET Mono Blocks built by Alan Hobkirk here in South Africa. Maximum power is around 8 - 12 Watts. Interconnects are from LM 240LF coax.
Good for up to 5 GHz with a loss of 5 dB per/100 meters at 30MHz so at the low frequency that we use in audio there is no loss worth speaking about. Speaker leads are from twin lead (rip cord), conductor 2 mm sq. Probably the salient point here is that due no doubt to Tannoys drivers, the sound is as one would expect tonally. In terms of sensitivity they are at least 100 dB/1 Watt/1 Meter for the main cone. Another way of putting it is that the horn cabinet gives at least 6 dB and probably more. The downside is that the HF driver now needs help as from the gain point the HF is too soft.
This can be overcome by the addition of a suitable extra driver that can run from 1 kHz (the crossover point) upwards. I have done this with two EMIT ribbons per side in separate horns although other less exotic cone drivers could be used as in the original drawing. This gain imbalance when horn loading the main cone also had to be addressed in my Double Autographs.
The cabinet needs no sub-woofer as it very easily plays the bottom note of a Double Bass at 41 Hz or Bottom C 16' (32 Hz) in an organ at a volume equal to that of higher notes. The 32' octave of an organ gets softer as one would expect but for all normal music there is ample bass and as it's done by a horn - fast and clean with no bloat and power aplenty and on a recording of the West Point organ, the low bass is both heard and felt. Bass drum beats are visceral and fast. Tonally the horns are clean with no peaks and very, very dynamic. I mentioned earlier my preference for large drivers for up to at least 1,000 Hz as this gives body to the sound and comparing these cabinets to my main system which has two 15' Dual Concentrics per side I am more than happy with the result.
These Coral designed horns also give the scale that monkey coffins, in my experience, can't give and do very well in replicating the recording space. Imaging is pin point and the cabinets totally disappear on any decent recording. One remarkable recording in particular on a FAS label from 1975 is of the organ at St Mary's Church, Stoke D'Abernon every nuance of each note played is beautifully reproduced and as the organ only has one 16' stop on 2 1/4' of water pressure it is easy to judge every separate note for both timbre and volume. The cabinets reproduced this stop evenly note to note with no apparent differences in loudness. With something a bit more adventuress, 'The Glory of Gabrieli' (Columbia MS7071) in original surroundings, (even if it did mean E Power Biggs had to uproot not only choruses from America, recording equipment from Switzerland, brass players from Germany and a pipe organ from Austria!) the wonderful sonority of the space shone through, almost as if one was there!
A 'Digital Classics' (Philips 416-159-1), if that's not an oxymoron label for an LP, of Daniel Chorzempa playing the Cadet Chapel, West Point organ. A huge beast of an instrument with multiple 32' (16 Hz) stops and huge resources and came through clearly with enough power to feel the bass against your skin (and ribs). The bass on this LP is well recorded and many years ago I blew up a friends Bose 501 speakers with it, in fact the cones tore loose from the surrounds.
Not so the Tannoys in the horn cabinets. Even played too loudly for comfort the main cones just tremble, so little in fact the movement was a bit difficult to see. This is where a well designed and built horn comes into it's own. Low power (very little stress) for lots of volume which therefore gives very little distortion and concomitant to that, the sound produced is very clean with no distortion from the speaker system that one can hear. Pink Floyd or Jacques Loussier or Harry Mortimer's brass band, they all play well, so too does Leon Berry on an large Wurlitzer Theater Organ (Audio Fidelity AFLP 1828) issued in 1958, one of the very first Stereo recordings to market.
Digression In talking about the sound from a system I find I need to use a reference otherwise it's all too easy to get carried away! Because of my interest in the organ I have been lucky enough to have one at hand when setting up my first Tannoy Autograph and then the Double Autograph hence my reliance on the organ for illustration of tone, harmonics and bass response and how well a speaker cabinet does duty as a true reproducer of sound. 32' Open Diapason pipes, Midmer Losh, Atlantic City a bit of a problem to reproduce with tiny drivers and the usual one note subs! The cabinets above left were for the three 32' Stops (30 Hz down to 16 Hz) and the large port needed to tune to that frequency.
Each cabinet was 600 liters and the speaker 15' with separate 250 Watt Mosfet amps. Cabinet walls were for the bottom two 32 mm thick with lots of bracing. One speaker cabinet could not play multiple stops at the same time due to interference between the tones hence the need for discrete cabinets. There was also a Duo-Art Piano in the room being re-built at the time. Conclusion Reproducing instruments recognizably is not difficult, most speakers can do that. Getting the actual timbre, scale and space information is a different thing altogether.
Keeping the different instruments separate and being able to hear each one as a unit as one can do in a live setting, is the mark of a great speaker. The combination of Tannoy driver and Coral horn does this and I believe when another pair of cabinets are made up for the Goodmans they will do equally as well. My prejudice against small drivers used for anything below 1 kHz stems from physics dictating that a loudspeaker's effective radiating diameter should increase with wavelength of sound to provide low distortion, broad dynamic range and uniform power distribution.
The following graph is a visible representation of this. A Lowther driver has a cone diameter of 7.9' which gives an Sd = 201 cm2, a Fostex FF225WK an Sd = 220cm2. The Tannoy 12' Monitor Gold used here has an SD = 528 cm2 or 2.4 times that of an 8' unit. Despite any claims to the contrary from those with vested interests in sales, bigger drivers sound more natural and sending a smaller speaker to do the same job as a big one will result in compromises. A quote from Legacy Audio in the person of William R. Dudleston “A loudspeaker's radiating area must increase in relation to the size of the wavelength reproduced to have uniform power distribution linear output efficiency and dynamic range will increase as loud speaker piston area and motor size is increased. For a given sound pressure level, distortion will decrease as piston area and motor size is increased.
Transient response characteristics usually improve as piston area and motor size is increased. (For you skeptics who still believe that an 8' woofer is “quicker” than a 12' woofer, remember this is a volume velocity issue.” The picture is of a finished cabinet with a Coral Beta 10 speaker fitted. The 12' Coral derived horns do much that is right and as stated before, due to the Tannoy drivers, tonally they are correct.
The effect of the cabinet is only on the main cone and has increased sensitivity by a very noticeable amount. Nothing is ever perfect but other than a need to lift the HF a bit, there are no real downsides to this build, the sound produced is fast, not bloated, but far from the thin anemic efforts of say, Lowther and Fostex type drivers in rear loaded horns. They are not “in your face” either, as per certain multiple round horn systems. On program material such as brass band with drums or rock music they can thump you in the chest while retaining the delicacy needed to hear the sticks on the drum. Because of the very small cone movement there is no tendency to become congested with complex material and cone breakup never happens. The crossover point is 1 kHz so most of the music comes from the main cone but as the HF is also horn loaded so all the positives apply there too albeit a bit soft. Adding extra HF drive by means of additional tweeters brings everything into balance without detracting from the general sound and seemingly without destroying the “Point Source” which is probably due to the bulk of the HF sound coming from the Tannoy.
They can also play very loud if wanted with no audible distortion - a horn feature! The addition of 200 mm to the cabinet length and tongue seems to have been worthwhile and I say “seems” only because I have not heard the original. I will be doing it again with my Goodmans Axiom 201's in the near future. My hope that it would couple to the floor better has proved out in that bass response and extension is remarkable from such a small cabinet and far, far better than what one gets from a sub-woofer. Plus there is no need to apply corrective equalization to keep things accurate, it works out of the box as it were.! A very strong upside is not needing to use a sub woofer as there would be real problems trying to match the speed of the response plus extra cost.
Probably the most impressive feature is that the cabinets totally disappear and all that remains is the space, the instruments and the music - what more could one want? Of this article features a similar design, with a 12' Goodmans Axiom driver instead. © Copyright 2015 - www.tnt-audio.com.
If you are contemplating the purchase of a set of Tannoy Dual Concentric speakers you may want to read the following. For many years now I've held the Tannoy brand in high esteem. I promised myself I would someday aquire a set of Tannoy speakers. Recently I took the plunge and purchased the following as my Home Theatre setup 2 Saturn S10, 2 Saturn S8, 2 Saturn S8C and 1 Eyris DCC The Saturn line has now been discontinued but the Eyris line is a main stream speaker for Tannoy these days It took less than a week for me to discover there was something horribly wrong with these speakers.
At certain elevated listening levels and only with specific recordings the speakers would 'buzz'. It's a scratchy kind of a sound, not easy to describe but certainly obvious when you hear it. When it happens you can actually see the speaker cones bottoming out. For weeks I tried an assortment of equipment trying to discover the root cause. I tried 4 different applifiers/receivers, different cables, reflex port plugs, different recordings, different speakers. In one setup (with a high power receiver), only the S10 and the DCC would exhibit this buzzing. In one setup (with a high end receiver) only the DCC would buzz.
The Eyris DCC speaker seemed to be the worst as it would buzz to some degree in all my test setups. Only when I used speakers OTHER than the Dual Concentric ones did I get rid of the buzzing altogether. I was more than surprised by these results. I had read nothing but good reviews about Tannoy Dual Concentric speakers. I first sought the help of my dealer to help me resolve this issue.
I had my dealer and their technical guru over to my house for a live demonstration of the buzzing problem. I am able to reproduce the problem at will. My dealer blamed just about everything BUT the speakers. At one point they blamed the high db levels. I was told not to play the music so loud.
I thought this was horse pucky. I could not duplicate this problem on any other non Dual Concentric speaker, no matter the loudness level. Even the Eyris non Dual Concentric could be operated at ear deafening levels without any sign of buzzing. Yes higher volumes are a factor in bringing out the problem more frequently but the buzzing can sometimes be heard from time to time at normal listening levels Then the quality of the recording I was using to produce the buzz was blamed. Within short order I was able to come up with other recordings that was produce a similiar noise.
For those of you who might be interested try these recordings. O Brother, Where Art Thou? Soundtrack, track 3 You are My Sunshine (near the beginning) Kate Bush, The Whole Story, track 2 CloudBusting (about a minute in) My amplifier was also blamed (because it was more than 10 years old). I took my recording into the dealer's own listening room. We sampled more than half a dozen speakers on display with the dealers own amplifier and I was able to reproduce the buzz problem but only on the Eyris Dual Concentric speakers.
All others including the Tannoy NON dual concentric speakers were just fine. My dealer was trying to talk me out of the problem and was not offering any credible solutions so I brought the issue to the North Americian distributor for Tannoy. If anyone would know about a limitation in the Dual Concentric design if would be the manufacturer. At first they seemed to be genuinely interested in making sure this issue got resolved but in the end that was just more rhetoric. The problem remains.
Neither my dealer nor the distributor would acknowledge that anything could be wrong with the design of these speakers. I got comments like we've been selling Dual Concentric speakers for years and you are the first to bring up such a problem. (I don't believe this) I also sent a problem description to the Tannoy headoffice asking for their help.
They obviously have more experience with these speakers than I do, I was hoping they might help by disclosing information about this problem. I too found it find it hard to believe I was the only one with such an issue. Car manufacturers often know about products defects and limitations long before they become public knowledge. This is usually sensitive information that would hurt sales if disclosed.
In my situation I needed some of this information released to help convince my dealer there is in fact something wrong with these speakers. Tannoy headoffice didn't even respond to either of the 2 emails I sent them. I know I had a valid email address as they responded the next day when I asked questions about the avalability of the discontinued Saturn line. I invited Tannoy North America reps over to my house to hear the problem for themselves but so far they have not accepted. When I couple this with the lack of response from Tannoy headoffice and the finger pointing by my dealer I'm even more convinced now that my compliants about Tannoy Dual Concentric speakers are valid. To me this speaker buzzing is a serious defect and I decided I wanted to return the speakers.
My dealer refused to take the speakers back and refund my money. For the record my dealer is Bleeker Stereo and TV Ltd of Nepean Ontario. I won't be purchasing anything from this business in the future. So after all this my advise would be to thoroughly test any Dual Concentric speakers before putting down any cash and it wouldn't hurt to find a dealer with a consumer friendly return policy.
These days so many places have customer satisfaction policies and will take things back without too much hassle I rarely ask anymore (should have this time). Unfortunately there are still some small businesses out there (like Bleeker) who are more interested in the bottom line. Get assurances you can return them if you have any buzzing problems.
Quote: Originally posted by mhorton It took less than a week for me to discover there was something horribly wrong with these speakers. So after all this my advise would be to thoroughly test any Dual Concentric speakers before putting down any cash and it wouldn't hurt to find a dealer with a consumer friendly return policy. Get assurances you can return them if you have any buzzing problems. M are they not accepting returns because it's discontinued? If I find a problem with something I bought within a week, I would definitely take it back to where I bought them right away, instead of trying to figure out what is wrong.
Most places would try to help solve the problem, esp. If you're patient and not rude or demanding with them. If things don't work out, you can also notify the Better Business Bureau.
They might be able to help. If you bought it by credit card, then try to get your credit card company to jump in with this issue too.
Chase and Discover (but mostly Discover) have gone to bat for me previously when I had problems. Chase tried, but I had (stupidly?) gotten conned into signing a 'no cancellation' policy that was worded such that when I put a holding deposit, that constituted a 'sale', even when I had not gotten any merchandize nor service (it was a photography place). Sorry about the tangent, where was I. Oh yeah, so try your credit card company too.
Quote: Originally posted by Bigus I'd certainly push the dealer about a refund, or the very least an exchange for some speakers that are acceptable to you. Were these discontinued speakers purchased 'as is' with no warranty? Does Canadian legislation impose a minimum warranty period or 'fit for merchantability' guarantee? Is there an Canadian Better Business Bureau?
All good questions. Do not accept 'no' for an answer. That said, why are you screaming negatively about a brand on a forum, without first quietly asking if anyone else is having the problem? Your slamming a company in a public arena, before doing any due diligence, and based on a single experience. Its fine to do this, but your calling at least as much attention to yourself, as you are the company. Joe: Tone is talking tone. First post: describe your problem, seek advice.
Mhorton drops out out of the sky with a bomb. Personally, I don't think it's the way to 'introduce' oneself to the forum, but maybe that's me. The implication is that the dual concentric Tannoys are an inherently flawed design. Hmmm.they've been making them for what, 5 decades? We have no idea what the terms of mhorton's sale were, the age of the speakers in question, whether the buzzing he's talking about is inherent in the cd's, nothing. So, regarding his post: caveat lector.
Quote: Originally posted by mhorton.It took less than a week for me to discover there was something horribly wrong with these speakers. At certain elevated listening levels and only with specific recordings the speakers would 'buzz'. It's a scratchy kind of a sound, not easy to describe but certainly obvious when you hear it.
When it happens you can actually see the speaker cones bottoming out. M If you see the cones 'bottoming out' it would appear that you have some subsonic information going to the Tannoys that does not belong there. Being that as it may if you are not happy with your speakers you should be entitled to a fix or a refund.
I have no experience with the Tannoy drivers, but in a previous life when I designed loudspeaker systems, I did notice some anomalous behavior with concentric Seas drivers under certain circumstances. If used in a sealed enclosure and driven too hard or at inappropriate frequencies, there was what would technically be called a 'whistle' noise that could occur as the compressed air in the cabinet rushed through the gap and past the voice coil and out. Most lower frequency drivers have dust caps which would prevent this 'leak'. (Although there are some porous dust caps that must mitigate this effect) I have no idea if this is applicable to the construction of the Tannoy drivers, or if what you describe as a 'buzz' could be this sound.
As an aside, the other issue with concentric drivers is an on-axis high frequency notch due to the symmetry of the design. If I recall, this was around 11kHz for that 6.5' driver - but arguably too narrow to hear and diminished when off-axis. There are a lot of benefits to the concentric concept, so I don't mean to be knocking it.
I'm afraid that I'll have to go along with others who suggest this is an issue with driving the speakers too hard - perhaps combined with an inherent vulnerability introduced by crossover choice or cabinet volume. Horton presented his case well.
The problem exists, not just in his setup and listening conditions. It was reproduced at the dealer.
The dealer refusing refund or exchange is unconscionable. Not knowing Canadian law I can't make specific recommendations, but were I in his shoes I would pursue all regulatory and legal avenues of redress. As for posting here, he is leveraging the power of the internet community. Here you can tell your story to interested others and the Tannoy reps can't bury it by ignoring it.
Quote: Originally posted by tonygeno For sure. Not sure why mhorton dropped his bomb and ran, Let's just hope Tannoy is able to stay in business after this devastating thread.:rolleyes: I say hats off to those in this thread who tried to help they original poster instead of complaining that he posted to a home theater SUPPORT site and posted his experience. I found his post a heck of a lot more interesting than some of the posts I read from some of you who LIVE here. Oh, yeah.just my two cents.
Quote: Originally posted by tubeguy44 it was an interesting read. After all.if he is looking for comments and/or support, why didn't he stick around and continue the converstation??? And as for those of us that 'live here'. When you post about 3.5 times a day like yourself, i don't feel that you should throw stones.:D Not a bad point about him returning, but either way he's helped people. If they have a bad experience with Tannoy, there will be searchable info available.
If he WAS a troll then the info will die never to be needed and we'll know the truth.:) Maybe your right about 'living' here:).maybe I shouldn't throw stones, but I was referring to the fact that you guys know more about this stuff and have the ability to actually try and help the guy and all he got was crap. I for one would try and help the guy 'if I could', rather than knock his post. Use your power for good gentlemen.that's all I'm saying.:).
Re bhchan 07-16-04 Post #2 Yes I believe the store owner was putting up more resistance to providing a refund in part because most of the speakers were discontinued. The dealer had to source two of the speakers from another store and had to replace 4 broken grills so I appreciated that effort.
I wanted these Tannoys and didn't want to just take them back at first. I wanted to work with the dealer to resolve the issue. The salesperson and the tech support I think had an appreciation for the problem but in the end it was the owner who vetoed any refund.
I did bring this problem to the Better Business Bureau but they turned out to be totally useless. I spend a lot of time copying them on all my letters and memoes.
They sent me a few official copies and that's about it. A month after they closed the case I checked their web site and they had not even updated their complaint count against this dealer. I did purchase these items with a credit card and yes they have helped me with ripoffs and one bankruptcy in the past. I have a premium Mastercard with lots of consumer protection features.
They were one of the first places I went to for help but my case did not meet the conditions for them to get involved. I have Purchase Assurance, Extended Warranty and Price Protection. I was quite disappointed to discover the details of this coverage doesn't quite live up to the expectations you get when you read the sales literature.
Re Bigus 07-16-04 Post #5 No the speakers came with the full warranty, five years I think. The Tannoy rep told me they were willing to replace any component. The problem in this situation however is not just a bad part so the warranty really won't help with this. Re JohnRINLA 07-17-04 Post #6 I spent considerable time searching forums (and other research) looking for anyone else with any similiar issues with Tannoy. When I posted my review it was basically at the point where I had given up the search, I had done my due diligence.
I have got lots of help from these forums and to give back I felt it was important my enter my post. Re tonygeno 07-17-04 Post #8 The S10s and the S8s were used (demo speakers). The S8C and the Eyris DCC was brand new. I actually had 2 Eyris DCC speakers as I lent the first one to the dealer to take back to the shop for testing (as it was the worst).
The dealer scratched it quite badly but they replaced it. Same buzzing problem however. I mentioned how I had tried different CDs and could duplicate the buzzing. I first heard the problem with an FM broadcast but that's hardly acceptable for troubleshooting.
Knowing this I concluded the source material was not to blame. Re tonygeno 07-17-04 Post #11 I always intended to follow up with replies to my post. I too hate folks who post once then disappear. Sorry it took a few weeks, I don't get a chance to get back here everyday. The intent of my post was to relay my experience with the dealer, the manufacturer and these speakers. Maybe it will help someone to avoid what happened to me.
I wish there was such a post when I researched what speakers to buy re tubeguy44 07-19-04 Post #16 Yes this really happened. What possile reason would there be to make this up? Re tubeguy44 07-19-04 Post #18 I posted for 2 reasons. The main reason was as a warning to others but I was also hoping to find someone who might be experiencing a similiar issue.
Right now it's just me against Tannoy, Tannoy's distributors and the Tannoy dealership. It's tough to win when the odds are stacked that high. My case would improve dramatically if I could get someone else on my side.
Always listen to speakers before you plunk down your hard earned cash. If you can't do that, make sure you can get a refund if you don't like them for any reason. Better yet do both of the above.
That's a lesson that has been repeated over and over in various forms on this forum. Negotiate the return terms (how long you can keep it, restocking fee, etc.) in advance and make sure both parties understand and agree. Put it in writing if you feel you need to. It will save you a lot of grief later on. I hate to post this since disputing legitimate credit card charges is something I deal with everyday and have pretty much come to despise - but in this case it seems necessary. You should be able to dispute any charge on any Mastercard under their umbrella clause that you 'did not receive a product or service which met your expectations.' There are some MC's which will have specific rules regarding their dispute claims but I've yet to come across a single one that wouldn't allow a dispute to be made in situations similar to yours.
To me it's simple. Your speakers are 'defective' or D.O.A.
And you shoud demand a full refund or full store credit. End of story. Get a lawyer involved to write a letter and present a copy to your dealer and Tannoy N.A. It certainly sounds like you went out of your way with proper testing and verification that the problem is real, and to work with both your dealer & Tannoy to come up with a solution. A good dealer would have taken them back, and beat-up Tannoy themselves without inconveniencing you. Time to elevate it this to a another level.
They 'know' they are wrong, so flex some muscle. Might I suggest Alice Cooper 'No More Mr. ' Good luck and keep us posted. Was the sale a 'final sale' as written on the receipt? Regardless of discontinued or not, were you under any impression that these speakers were yours once you walked out the door? If Tannoy is willing to replace any defective component as the speakers are under warranty, why not take them up on it?
Keep sending them back (if need be) if they are not right. Did you check your speaker wire or interconnects. A small amount of damage tot he speaker wire can cause issues.
I know, at louder volumes, I had a damaged wire that arced and shut down the amp. Speakers are passive. This buzzing sounds peculiar. If you are bottoming out a driver, perhaps you have a bad driver? Also, what is the sensitivity rating and impedance of the speakers? What types of amps have you tried?
I don't agree with the way you have been treated, but this is a 'hard to believe' problem with a set of speakers. THe fact that certain sources bring this out makes me think that the problem is NOT the speakers. You haven't convinced me of a speaker problem based on what you have posted. Have you checked your electrical?
Are you running components that are on different circuits? Re Bigus 07-16-04 Post #5 There was nothing on the bill of sale to indicate it being 'as is' or 'final', in fact the opposite.
Because some of the speakers in the set were demo units I had the store write a clause on the bill that stated if I was not satisfied with the condition of the speakers I could call the whole deal off. One of the main arguements I presented to the BBB was this. I told them I was not satisfied and I wanted out of the deal. When I tried to call the deal off the store owner still refused to allow a return.
Re catapult Post #21 I did extensive research before making my purchase which included a listen test. This was done in the store however with their source material. Who could have suspected the speakers were problematic only under specific conditions. The store's listening room only provided a sampling of speakers, thay did not provide the whole set. I thought I had listened to enough to be satisfied with that. The store has a good reputation and my salesperson assured me that if I had any problems thay would take care of me, even if I had them at home for a few months.
This is a privately owned small business (3 stores). They also assured me they like to think this affords them better service than those big box stores who usually charge less. I believe in good service and was willing to pay up for it. How much more assurance could I get? The big box stores have much better satisfaction guarantees. The battle I have here is no-one believes there is anything wrong. Re Andy Lammer Post #23 I had presented my case to Tannoy N.A.
In Kitchener. When I hit the brick wall with the dealer this was the group I next elevated my case to.
I had extensive exchanges with someone there who I understand to be of high standing. In the end they basically said if it was not a warranty issue then it was out of their hands. To get a lawyer involved is not a great idea. For one thing I don't think any law compells this store to give me a refund. And I know that any legal battle will cost a ton of cash, not usually worth it.
Re PicusH Post #22 That was my long held understanding as well but when I went to the charge card company they asked me if the speakers were damaged, lost or stolen. I had to answer no.
Tannoy Dual Concentric
The protection policy is actually subcontracted to some insurance agent. They have specific conditions to meet and if you don't meet those conditions, you're out. It was not a cover all policy. It might have been that with other cards or in the past but not for me. Re thebland Post #24.1 I answered this earlier.2 That's a good idea, I might do that.3 Yes, in fact I had purchased some new high quality extra thick speaker wire (12 guage).4 I tried 4 different amps, a Marantz 75 watt, A Yamaha 100 watt, an Onkyo 100 watt and something else I don't know in the dealer's listening room. I don't know all the sensitivity ratings and the impedances range from 6 to 8 ohms as I recall. We are talking about several different models which I listed.
The published specs would be a better reference than me.5 I'm also having trouble convincing others this is a speaker problem. As I meantioned it's the only thing in the equation that resolves the buzzing when exchanged. I can't see it being the electrical. I've duplicated the buzzing at my house, a friends house where I tried the Onkyo and at the dealers store. Quote: Because some of the speakers in the set were demo units I had the store write a clause on the bill that stated if I was not satisfied with the condition of the speakers I could call the whole deal off. This statement seems to indicate that you have a contract with the dealer that gives you legal recourse.
Have you tried the speakers with a big amp (not a receiver) with say 200 watts per channel? Receivers (even high end ones) are notorious for not putting out their rated power. It sounds, as Jeff suggested, that you might have issues that are not speaker related. Finally, when all is said and done, this thread's name should be changed to: WARNING - Bleeker Stereo and TV - caveat emptor.
I feel for you; awful situation. The bland is right. De facto the speakers are not working properly and they are under warranty. Send them in as many times as it is necessary. After three times of trying to repair it they must give you a new set or equivalent new model, if I am not mistaken.
With the clause on your bill you should have no problem legally. A lawyer will get this settled with around two hours of work which might set you back $500. Don't know if it's worth it.
As far as possible causes go I can only speculate wildly. A wire that touches the speaker cone at a certain point when a certain frequency is played.
Tannoy Definition
A misalignment of the two drive units, maybe in conjunction with an insufficient damping factor that doesn't completely control the chassis. I don't understand how the dealer can even have the guts to refuse helping you.
Especially since you were able to reproduce the problem for his own ears to hear. Sending it in on warranty might be the best thing to do.
Your dealer should pay the shipping by the way. That will make him lose his entire margin after a couple of times back and forth. He'd rather exchange or refund, I bet. Lastly yu can always tell yourself that this comes up only with certain tracks under certain conditions and if otherwise you like the sound, you might be able to live with it.
Good luck, Till. It should - but his credit card seems to have an interesting way of dealing with chargebacks. Most cards subcontract out to a third party company to handle disputes but it's almost always after the fact, so they can get their money back from the vendor. I've never heard of one that makes the customer go through them to make the actual dispute.
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As a matter of fact in the past 2 years disputes have become, if anything, easier to make. American Express doesn't even require a reason anymore. But that's neither here nor there - if mhorton is unable to resolve this problem the dealer should take the speakers back. If they won't they I would push forward with a dispute.
Tannoy Dual Concentric Driver
I think in this situation 'damaged' might not be totally inappropriate. This is of course assuming you can verify the problem is 100% with the speakers.
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